Selected exchanges from our 45-minute conversation, lightly edited for brevity.
Read the full transcript →From Big Law to building from scratch
You took a very deliberate career break when your children were young, and I think you mentioned reflecting on where you see yourself in the legal profession. How did that period change you as a lawyer, or your approach to being a lawyer?
The change was quite cathartic. I’d spent much of my career in Big Law. Even in private practice my skills were quite diverse, but compared to where I am now, they were very niche: banking and finance, and structured finance in particular. In private practice, one is typically very specialised.
Then I took a career break for quite a number of years. It gave me space to rethink whether I wanted to stay on the same career path. When I moved to a niche firm that was very active in the startup ecosystem, it was quite an eye-opener, and it paved the way for me to eventually go in-house and build a function from scratch.
Saison is actually my first in-house job. I never thought I would be part of the in-house community. That transition meant opening myself up to the idea that it was possible – even at the level of a partner in private practice. It does mean a bit of give and take. But being curious enough to make that move is what has led me to where I am today.
I think that nowadays, particularly with AI, people should not be confined or defined by what they’re doing. It really comes down to character: whether you’re the kind of person who is curious enough to do something different. That curiosity and willingness to try something new makes a real difference.
How important is that character piece – the confidence to step outside your comfort zone and take a risk on something new?
Character does play a big part. Even then, I was pushing myself – I made a point of representing both borrowers and lenders, working on complex financing structures that our firm was not familiar with, and working closely with the Corporate Finance department on different types of deals. I’d be the first to put my hand up and say: “I don’t know anything about this, but I’m happy to get stuck in.”
Looking at private practice today, I think lawyers have a lot more opportunities and are encouraged to develop other skillsets such as business development and leadership.
The same is true for in-house teams, whether you’re in a big bank, where roles tend to be more specialised, or in a smaller organisation like ours, where we have to take on multiple tasks. The opportunities are there.
People should not be confined or defined by what they’re doing. It really comes down to character.
Beyond legal expertise: understanding the business
For lawyers coming out of Big Law, how good is their training today? How much of it makes you effective in-house, and what do you still need to learn?
Transitioning in-house is never easy. One of my interview questions is: “Why do you want to go in-house?” Candidates always give me the standard answer: “Because I want to be closer to the business.” So I’d ask: “What does that mean to you? What does being closer to the business actually mean?” Very few can answer that credibly.
To address your question more directly: coming from private practice, you have the core skills. Your technical skills – review, drafting, negotiation and all the other legal work – and your communication skills are very important. But beyond that, do you have the potential to develop key corporate skills?
Being close to the business isn’t simply about knowing what it does. People tend to focus on the core business activities, forgetting that every business line is part of a larger corporate organisation, requiring support in finance, HR, branding, communications and corporate development. You need to understand how those functions interact, how decisions are made, and what matters to the stakeholders involved.
Helping lawyers transfer their private practice skills into a corporate environment isn’t straightforward. Some people seem naturally curious and adaptable. I can guide them, and they learn through working closely with the business, but it isn’t something you can teach entirely from a manual.
And it matters, because in-house, you’re not simply identifying legal issues or leaving commercial points for the business to resolve. You’re expected to form a judgment and make a recommendation, taking commercial and strategic considerations into account. Management may ultimately decide differently, but you need to be prepared to give a view.
Assume the 30%, build the 70%
Firm pedigree has long been a signal hiring managers use: if I want high performers, I look at people from these backgrounds. As AI takes on more of the repetitive work that builds skills, is the link between those firms and the lawyers they produce breaking?
I think people really need to rethink their recruitment strategy, and I don’t see much of that in the conversations at the moment. I get invited to a lot of events, and it’s all about AI: legal AI governance, ways of working, the systemic issues. But I hear much less discussion about what AI means for talent retention, recruitment and in-house training. For me, that’s the most important part.
Because of how our business works, and because of my own career transition, I very deliberately built a team with diverse skills from day one, and I’ve never gone down the typical recruitment route.
Early on, I introduced a written assessment after initial HR screening. I needed to understand candidates’ technical foundations and how they communicated their reasoning before going into a more detailed interview. I often say that those foundation skills might account for 30% of what someone ultimately needs to succeed in-house. The other 70% has to be developed: understanding the business, working with different teams, making strategic judgments and learning to operate within the organisation.
We have worked hard to make Legal a genuinely embedded business partner. I don’t just mean a working relationship; I mean real embedment and trust, and it takes time to build.
I tailor [our written] assessment for each candidate, and I rarely test them on their bread and butter. I might test them a little to make sure they know their day-to-day work, but out of three assessments, only one will be familiar. The other two will be things they haven’t done before. I’m interested in how they approach something unfamiliar – whether they can identify the issues, apply their existing knowledge and communicate a sensible recommendation.
I guess nowadays you have to ask them not to use generative AI, because that would do the assessment in an instant.
We ask candidates not to use AI for the assessment because I’m trying to understand their own reasoning and capability. We make the rules on AI use very clear in the beginning.
I also tell candidates that even if they could fool me, it won’t help them, because this is how I assess people, through their strengths and weaknesses. A weaker performance on the written assessment doesn’t always rule someone out. I want to understand how they approach unfamiliar problems and which skills can be developed, so that, if I hire them, I know how to support their growth. It’s a very honest exchange.
Hiring for the whole package, not the specific talent
This has been a learning experience for you as well. How have you changed in spotting talent compared with five or ten years ago? What might you have got wrong back then that you do differently now?
I was thinking about this recently. I used to hire people for their technical talent. In hindsight, that’s one factor, but now I look more widely at what someone brings to the table overall.
Across our global team, I’ve found that the most effective colleagues aren’t necessarily those with the deepest technical expertise. They’re the ones who combine sound legal skills with initiative, adaptability and the ability to work with people across different functions and jurisdictions. They’re self-starters, rather than people who need a fair amount of handholding.
Leadership is also very important, and not everyone has it. I’m not saying that without leadership skills you don’t belong in-house – there are always many layers. But it’s about having the foresight to look beyond “this is a talent I should have”, and think about how someone fits into the organisation and what role they’ll play in the future.
When you recruit, you’re not just filling a role for today. Our medium and long term business plans feature here: they help us anticipate what the organisation will need and what the legal function should be capable of delivering several years from now.
Building the capability the business needs
If you were starting from zero today, how has the playbook for building a high-performing function changed, if at all? How you hire, whether you hire at all, or other routes you’d take?
As I said, our business verticals are so diversified that my playbook has always differed slightly from the industry standard – if there is one. I look beyond what the lawyers themselves can do, to how the function will work with the rest of the organisation.
The operating model has to be driven by the business. There’s no point building a function that the business doesn’t need or isn’t ready to support. But today, we have far more options for meeting those needs, whether through internal lawyers, external counsel, secondees, fractional support or technology.
Recently, I advised a team setting up a brand new business vertical, and I wrote them a guide. The starting point was not “Should we hire or instruct external counsel?” … It was “What capabilities will this new business need, and when?” There are many ways to meet those needs.
I have a set of questions to work through with the business leader before I offer a solution. There is no single standard answer. The right model depends on the business, its stage of development and what it needs to reach its goals.
What AI can’t bridge – and what to learn instead
Can you foresee AI getting to the point where it could do much of what an experienced GC does?
I find it hard to see AI replacing the full role of an experienced GC in the foreseeable future. Of course, the technology is changing quickly, so I wouldn’t make a prediction about 20 or 30 years from now. But in the next five or seven years, I can’t see that role being replaced.
We work with different legal AI tools, [but] they can’t bring the human context built through experiences – knowing the organisation, its people, the history of a decision and what may not be said explicitly. AI can support technical analysis, but it would still be working to their instructions and parameters. It cannot yet take responsibility for a recommendation or a relationship.
I always emphasise communication and leadership skills. Even as AI becomes better at strategic analysis, so much of an executive discussion is still contextual. If one thing changes in the boardroom, I need to pivot entirely while people fire questions at me from different angles. AI might answer faster than me, but is the answer what your stakeholders are looking for? Maybe not.
If you were coming into the industry today, what sort of career path would you build? You went the Big Law route up to partner and then pivoted in-house. As a younger lawyer today, what experiences would you try to gain early on to stand out?
I joked that I might not do a law degree at all – I would study something I have passion for at university, like history of art. Not because law isn’t worthwhile, but because I think having interests beyond law is good for the soul.
More seriously, I think psychology and communication skills will be very important, so I’d probably choose a degree that would give me exposure to human psychology. As AI advances, understanding human psychology and communication will remain valuable, because people are shaped by very different cultures, experiences and circumstances.
And it’s not just about what you learn at university or during your training contract. When you go to an event, watch a film or go to the theatre, does anything inspire you and develop your humanity, your communication, your leadership and your entrepreneurial skills? These are things that can’t be taught at law school.
I think you have to learn to build. I’m not saying you need to be able to build a business from scratch, but understanding how it’s done and what it takes is important. I do worry about whether we are creating enough opportunities for the next generation to develop resilience. It comes from having to adapt, solve problems and work through unfamiliar situations.
Rewarding different strengths
Final question. What type of lawyer will the next decade reward that the last one didn’t?
Now that knowledge is much more widely available, I hope the people who tend to be overlooked will have a better chance of finding a niche where they’re recognised. What that niche is depends on their circumstances – where they are and what they’re doing.
But I hope everyone will be recognised for what they bring to the table, and that it’s looked at more widely than the traditional set: can you build a book of business? Do you represent the firm? Are you being nominated for one of the many awards?
Going back to your earlier comments, I wonder if it’s the entrepreneurial lawyer – the one who gets experience outside the law and becomes a more rounded, considered person – who can do the things you’ve described as critical for understanding the business and the people behind it.
Definitely. I think lawyers who are curious, adaptable and willing to gain experience beyond their specialisation will be increasingly valuable, particularly in-house, because we have people with many different professional backgrounds under one roof. You need different layers and people with different offerings.
Being a strong business partner isn’t limited to supporting revenue-generating activities. Governance and function development matter too. And not everyone needs to play the same role. Some lawyers are at their best when they’re working through difficult technical issues or providing the depth of expertise that the organisation depends on, whilst others excel at keeping things moving, coordinating across teams and making sure nothing falls through the cracks.
I think the in-house community will grow. Law firms have traditionally played a major role in training young talent, and many lawyers later bring that experience in-house. But private practice alone can only help so much, we need greater dialogue and collaboration between private practice and in-house teams on talent development, especially when AI changes how lawyers work and gain experiences.
There’s more in the transcript
Read the full conversation for further discussion of market coverage, secondments, fractional support, legal-function design and the development of future lawyers.
